I am a bit concerned. I read Dr. Colemans book in May. I found the book very valuable throughout. However, his chapter on Gender was the only chapter in which he did not present a view of both sides in a very neutral way. I thought he was completely biased in favor of gender ideology. Perhaps since the book was published, he has changed and sees a "wider view" and one that can see that in some cases great harm is occurring to the child or parent or both.
In this interview, he seemed more able to discuss a compassionate view, but I am suspect since his chapter is so one-sided. Stella and Sasha, have you read that chapter? Is it just me?
I also read his book in the last 1.5 yrs and I have subscribed to his emails. I don't think he has changed his mind much about gender based on those emails. I don't know how he would square being demanded to use a name before a YA would talk to the parent.
I’m adding this if anyone reads - yesterday he sent out an email to his subscribers again telling us that parents don’t understand the new shift in all the genders and we need to get on board. He quotes Diane Ehrensaft. There must be someone better out there. But, we are dealing with estrangement because our kids are in a cult.
Coleman doesn’t appear to have changed his mind, otherwise he would have updated his email. Coleman has kernels of nuggets that are helpful for ally kids that still have some attachment to their parents. I found it helpful with a situation with the ally son, but he estranged without any confrontation. He went silently in the night.
But I am re-reading (skimming) Hassan’s book on cults that I first read 3 yrs ago when my family was pulled into this. He mentioned that people in cults have two personalities - the cult one (don’t recognize the kid) and their authentic one. It hit me recalling my son the years from senior in HS to when we last saw him in 2021, that it fits his behavior. There were periods where my husband and I would comment to each other that there is hope for him. (My husband calls the period from teens to 25 as the tunnel of stupidity.) He was in the cult unbeknownst to us for two years. The glimmer of hope we saw was the kid we knew. Hassan describes two personalities because it’s when you see the authentic kid, can you help them. You cannot help them when they are in the cult frame of mind; in fact, you push them further into it.
I found this episode interesting -- however I felt there is an aspect of the estrangement between gender questioning kids and gender critical parents which deserves much more discussion-- I think these kids often choose to distance themselves not necessarily because of anything 'wrong' their parents said or did, but because the parent's very presence reminds them of the identity they are trying to bury. It's a lot harder to carry off a seamless transition to being the opposite sex in front of the person who changed your diapers and remembers your gender typical childhood. Really tends up to ramp up that disturbing cognitive dissonance. And i think sometimes, when a child has been historically especially close to a parent, it's not enough for the child if the parent is generally supportive but quiet about gender; anything short of full throated parental approval is seen as a painful attack on their new identity. Yet if the price of maintaining a relationship with one's child means completely ceding reality, I personally would find that too high a price to pay.
I'm politically liberal but personally conservative. I grew up in the southern US and was raised by liberal parents. Because of these strange intersections I have some observations.
The first is that I wanted to speak to the point about some kids just wanting separation. My family was close until I had grandchildren, and then my mom became obsessive about me taking and posting pictures of them. I would post more pictures of my kids than my friends would but my mom would still harangue me for pictures and if I mentioned something cute my kids did she would berate me for not getting it on camera. She would even flame me and accuse me of ruining her day for not posting enough pictures.
I think the sad thing is that growing up she would rail against parents who used camcorders to take videos of their kids for not putting the camera down and playing with their kids. I don't think most parents are as obsessive about photos and checking in as my mom became, mostly because I feel very alone in having this problem and have not met someone else with it. But I can attest to how stultifying it is to always have to check in and soothe my mom's anxiety and how it just contributed to the making of a bottomless void within her. If I had to do it again when I had kids I would have explained that we're not posting pictures of the internet and that I'm going to be playing with my kids, not taking video of them like she did with me when I was little. And I do think in the age of helicopter parenting where we're terrified of letting kids out of our sights, sometimes as parents we just need to do better at managing our anxiety and trusting that our kids will be okay and not burdening them with the task of fixing our anxiety for us (especially since it's not possible for a child to do that).
The other observation I have is that conservatives do better at taking care of their families than liberals do, to the point that conservatives are willing to tolerate more crap from their families because they benefit from it. My mom desperately wanted me to have children and desperately wanted to be a grandmother and put so much pressure on me and promised me a lot of support. I settled down and had two kids. My dad would watch them while I worked and they had them for a lot of weekends. Then my mom decided she wanted to move five hours away so she could be closer to the beach. My kids were 4 and 1 at the time, which is a hard age. My 4 year old was diagnosed with autism and was struggling with emotional regulation issues and it was exhausting to raise him at that time. And suddenly my parents, who were a huge source of support, left. Worse, all four of my grandparents were alive at the time and rather old and frail. And since my parents moved so far away I ended up being thrust into a caregiver role for my grandfather when he had a stroke and coordinating end of life issues I was not prepared for (I'd not had those discussions with my grandfather and did not know his wishes). Life is easier now, my kids are older and my son can emotionally regulate, though I've not had so much as a kid free weekend since the pandemic. But I'm still grappling from the devastation this caused and the feeling of abandonment and trust issues that I never had before as a result.
I stopped talking to other liberals about my feelings over this because they rail at me for wanting to impinge on my mother's freedom. But when conservatives hear that my mom did this they are shocked and horrified and full of outrage. It's one thing that led me to appreciate some things about conservatives through this ordeal but it is also shocking the difference in worldview this makes and I think it is important when understanding what is going on in our culture.
Basically, though, here I am, taking care of my family and getting very little of the support and community back. I feel like I've invested more than I'm getting, especially as I know that I am the sibling that will be taking care of my dad and elderly aunt as they age because I am the sibling that has a sense of duty (my mom died recently). But I am not getting the benefits of having and investing in a community by a long shot and I am resentful.
I think the struggle I am working to resolve is that being part of a community does mean tolerating some BS from people, but you do it so that when life is hard people will have your back. It was a lot harder for me to tolerate my parents' BS when they moved five hours away. And I think the time of our lives that we feel this the most is when we have young children. I've noticed the most reliable people in my life right now are other moms with small children. We don't judge each other, we try to help each other because we know how hard it is to do this without a village and we try to be that for each other. But unless you have small or disabled children it's very easy to forget that you need a community. Or to fathom that in an instant your life can change and you will be disabled and in need of a community.
I very much understand the need for accountability and I also don't tolerate being mistreated well so I get the temptation to just cut people off (and I have done so), and the way groups function is to protect the group, not the most vulnerable of its individuals (hence why both religious and secular organizations have sexual abuse scandals, and you also see this in toxic families that rally around abusers such as the Duggars). But in liberal families I would have to ask parents, are you expecting your children to manage your anxiety for you and unaware of the burden of the impossible task you are placing on them? Do you understand that parenting does not end at the age of 18 and are you still investing in quality time with your adult children that isn't through a phone? And the balance between giving adult kids space but also being supportive must be a hard tightrope to walk, but I do know plenty of adults from conservative families who say that even with the conflict that they have with their parents it's worth it for the help that they get with x, y, z.
Thanks so much for this episode im really looking forward to listening to it. There is so much therapy speak out on social media these last several years that heavily promotes “boundaries” but the boundaries that are being promoted are not actual boundaries they are attempts to control the other person with the threat of estrangement.
I’ve seen this a lot with new moms and in-laws, adult children who have political differences from their families and teens using boundaries as a means to become unparentable.
I really hope the tides begin to turn as there is more discussion around all of this.
I wanted to share an update regarding Joshua Coleman: I interviewed him and did a short series of role plays together for my July Topic video within my SubscribeStar Parent Membership Group. I actually read the chapter in his book about Flashpoints, including Gender Identity and was also really disappointed to see the way he approached gender there.
So I asked him more about this today and he indicated to me that he has been following the news regarding WPATH, Cass, and the unfolding scandal and told me that if he were to write that chapter today he'd be much more skeptical, conservative and cautious about the affirmation model. He also indicated a deeper understanding of how online trans communities turn young people against their parents by framing anything short of celebration proof of "transphobia". He also approached the subject with a lot of humility and invited my feedback regarding his approach to gender issues.
As with so many well-meaning, liberal professionals whose main field is outside of gender, I believe Joshua was following the evolving trends within the field of psychology, but I am confident that as he learns more about the topic of trans and gender identity, he's become much more skeptical of the mainstream narrative.
I was estranged from my father for 4 years because he put my mother in a home far away from anyone. The home had her on antipsychotics to deal with her dementia, and I think that at least half the patients in the home were on antipsychotics. My mother and other patients had become rigid and unable to walk - they were compliant. My father refused to discuss her care or get her off the antipsychotics. And I couldn't stop advocating for my mother's health. So I stopped talking to him until he nearly died, and I had to take care of him for 3 months and nurse him back to health. Eventually, he had my mother taken of the meds and moved her closer to him where we can visit. We have a relationship now. I thought my son had learned that prescribing medications off label was really bad. We aren't estranged yet, but our relationship is not good.
Great episode. Trans identification is in many ways a kind of estrangement, even if the child is still living at home or in contact with parents. In my work with families with ROGD kids, I have recommended very similar ways of understanding and communicating.
Depending on what the child is consuming on SM when they got pulled into the cult, they will estrange very quickly. I know of many parents who are estranged or alienated from their YA kid. This is a sign of a cult - remove all sources of doubt to keep them indoctrinated.
I am a bit concerned. I read Dr. Colemans book in May. I found the book very valuable throughout. However, his chapter on Gender was the only chapter in which he did not present a view of both sides in a very neutral way. I thought he was completely biased in favor of gender ideology. Perhaps since the book was published, he has changed and sees a "wider view" and one that can see that in some cases great harm is occurring to the child or parent or both.
In this interview, he seemed more able to discuss a compassionate view, but I am suspect since his chapter is so one-sided. Stella and Sasha, have you read that chapter? Is it just me?
I also read his book in the last 1.5 yrs and I have subscribed to his emails. I don't think he has changed his mind much about gender based on those emails. I don't know how he would square being demanded to use a name before a YA would talk to the parent.
I’m adding this if anyone reads - yesterday he sent out an email to his subscribers again telling us that parents don’t understand the new shift in all the genders and we need to get on board. He quotes Diane Ehrensaft. There must be someone better out there. But, we are dealing with estrangement because our kids are in a cult.
Yikes, I am not sure what to think about this.
I agree with you, however by all accounts he has developed his position since then. It is very unfortunate that he took this position in his book.
Coleman doesn’t appear to have changed his mind, otherwise he would have updated his email. Coleman has kernels of nuggets that are helpful for ally kids that still have some attachment to their parents. I found it helpful with a situation with the ally son, but he estranged without any confrontation. He went silently in the night.
But I am re-reading (skimming) Hassan’s book on cults that I first read 3 yrs ago when my family was pulled into this. He mentioned that people in cults have two personalities - the cult one (don’t recognize the kid) and their authentic one. It hit me recalling my son the years from senior in HS to when we last saw him in 2021, that it fits his behavior. There were periods where my husband and I would comment to each other that there is hope for him. (My husband calls the period from teens to 25 as the tunnel of stupidity.) He was in the cult unbeknownst to us for two years. The glimmer of hope we saw was the kid we knew. Hassan describes two personalities because it’s when you see the authentic kid, can you help them. You cannot help them when they are in the cult frame of mind; in fact, you push them further into it.
If you ever see a more developed position from him, please let me know. I haven't found it yet.
Yes I will. I really hope he is developing his position
I found this episode interesting -- however I felt there is an aspect of the estrangement between gender questioning kids and gender critical parents which deserves much more discussion-- I think these kids often choose to distance themselves not necessarily because of anything 'wrong' their parents said or did, but because the parent's very presence reminds them of the identity they are trying to bury. It's a lot harder to carry off a seamless transition to being the opposite sex in front of the person who changed your diapers and remembers your gender typical childhood. Really tends up to ramp up that disturbing cognitive dissonance. And i think sometimes, when a child has been historically especially close to a parent, it's not enough for the child if the parent is generally supportive but quiet about gender; anything short of full throated parental approval is seen as a painful attack on their new identity. Yet if the price of maintaining a relationship with one's child means completely ceding reality, I personally would find that too high a price to pay.
Thank you for your thoughtful comment, you make a very good case
I'm politically liberal but personally conservative. I grew up in the southern US and was raised by liberal parents. Because of these strange intersections I have some observations.
The first is that I wanted to speak to the point about some kids just wanting separation. My family was close until I had grandchildren, and then my mom became obsessive about me taking and posting pictures of them. I would post more pictures of my kids than my friends would but my mom would still harangue me for pictures and if I mentioned something cute my kids did she would berate me for not getting it on camera. She would even flame me and accuse me of ruining her day for not posting enough pictures.
I think the sad thing is that growing up she would rail against parents who used camcorders to take videos of their kids for not putting the camera down and playing with their kids. I don't think most parents are as obsessive about photos and checking in as my mom became, mostly because I feel very alone in having this problem and have not met someone else with it. But I can attest to how stultifying it is to always have to check in and soothe my mom's anxiety and how it just contributed to the making of a bottomless void within her. If I had to do it again when I had kids I would have explained that we're not posting pictures of the internet and that I'm going to be playing with my kids, not taking video of them like she did with me when I was little. And I do think in the age of helicopter parenting where we're terrified of letting kids out of our sights, sometimes as parents we just need to do better at managing our anxiety and trusting that our kids will be okay and not burdening them with the task of fixing our anxiety for us (especially since it's not possible for a child to do that).
The other observation I have is that conservatives do better at taking care of their families than liberals do, to the point that conservatives are willing to tolerate more crap from their families because they benefit from it. My mom desperately wanted me to have children and desperately wanted to be a grandmother and put so much pressure on me and promised me a lot of support. I settled down and had two kids. My dad would watch them while I worked and they had them for a lot of weekends. Then my mom decided she wanted to move five hours away so she could be closer to the beach. My kids were 4 and 1 at the time, which is a hard age. My 4 year old was diagnosed with autism and was struggling with emotional regulation issues and it was exhausting to raise him at that time. And suddenly my parents, who were a huge source of support, left. Worse, all four of my grandparents were alive at the time and rather old and frail. And since my parents moved so far away I ended up being thrust into a caregiver role for my grandfather when he had a stroke and coordinating end of life issues I was not prepared for (I'd not had those discussions with my grandfather and did not know his wishes). Life is easier now, my kids are older and my son can emotionally regulate, though I've not had so much as a kid free weekend since the pandemic. But I'm still grappling from the devastation this caused and the feeling of abandonment and trust issues that I never had before as a result.
I stopped talking to other liberals about my feelings over this because they rail at me for wanting to impinge on my mother's freedom. But when conservatives hear that my mom did this they are shocked and horrified and full of outrage. It's one thing that led me to appreciate some things about conservatives through this ordeal but it is also shocking the difference in worldview this makes and I think it is important when understanding what is going on in our culture.
Basically, though, here I am, taking care of my family and getting very little of the support and community back. I feel like I've invested more than I'm getting, especially as I know that I am the sibling that will be taking care of my dad and elderly aunt as they age because I am the sibling that has a sense of duty (my mom died recently). But I am not getting the benefits of having and investing in a community by a long shot and I am resentful.
I think the struggle I am working to resolve is that being part of a community does mean tolerating some BS from people, but you do it so that when life is hard people will have your back. It was a lot harder for me to tolerate my parents' BS when they moved five hours away. And I think the time of our lives that we feel this the most is when we have young children. I've noticed the most reliable people in my life right now are other moms with small children. We don't judge each other, we try to help each other because we know how hard it is to do this without a village and we try to be that for each other. But unless you have small or disabled children it's very easy to forget that you need a community. Or to fathom that in an instant your life can change and you will be disabled and in need of a community.
I very much understand the need for accountability and I also don't tolerate being mistreated well so I get the temptation to just cut people off (and I have done so), and the way groups function is to protect the group, not the most vulnerable of its individuals (hence why both religious and secular organizations have sexual abuse scandals, and you also see this in toxic families that rally around abusers such as the Duggars). But in liberal families I would have to ask parents, are you expecting your children to manage your anxiety for you and unaware of the burden of the impossible task you are placing on them? Do you understand that parenting does not end at the age of 18 and are you still investing in quality time with your adult children that isn't through a phone? And the balance between giving adult kids space but also being supportive must be a hard tightrope to walk, but I do know plenty of adults from conservative families who say that even with the conflict that they have with their parents it's worth it for the help that they get with x, y, z.
Thanks so much for this episode im really looking forward to listening to it. There is so much therapy speak out on social media these last several years that heavily promotes “boundaries” but the boundaries that are being promoted are not actual boundaries they are attempts to control the other person with the threat of estrangement.
I’ve seen this a lot with new moms and in-laws, adult children who have political differences from their families and teens using boundaries as a means to become unparentable.
I really hope the tides begin to turn as there is more discussion around all of this.
Hi everyone!
It's great to see such a lively discussion here.
I wanted to share an update regarding Joshua Coleman: I interviewed him and did a short series of role plays together for my July Topic video within my SubscribeStar Parent Membership Group. I actually read the chapter in his book about Flashpoints, including Gender Identity and was also really disappointed to see the way he approached gender there.
So I asked him more about this today and he indicated to me that he has been following the news regarding WPATH, Cass, and the unfolding scandal and told me that if he were to write that chapter today he'd be much more skeptical, conservative and cautious about the affirmation model. He also indicated a deeper understanding of how online trans communities turn young people against their parents by framing anything short of celebration proof of "transphobia". He also approached the subject with a lot of humility and invited my feedback regarding his approach to gender issues.
As with so many well-meaning, liberal professionals whose main field is outside of gender, I believe Joshua was following the evolving trends within the field of psychology, but I am confident that as he learns more about the topic of trans and gender identity, he's become much more skeptical of the mainstream narrative.
Oh my!
I learned so much from this episode.
It is as though you wrote my story word for word!
So great full to have stumbled across this episode.
Thank you
I was estranged from my father for 4 years because he put my mother in a home far away from anyone. The home had her on antipsychotics to deal with her dementia, and I think that at least half the patients in the home were on antipsychotics. My mother and other patients had become rigid and unable to walk - they were compliant. My father refused to discuss her care or get her off the antipsychotics. And I couldn't stop advocating for my mother's health. So I stopped talking to him until he nearly died, and I had to take care of him for 3 months and nurse him back to health. Eventually, he had my mother taken of the meds and moved her closer to him where we can visit. We have a relationship now. I thought my son had learned that prescribing medications off label was really bad. We aren't estranged yet, but our relationship is not good.
Great episode. Trans identification is in many ways a kind of estrangement, even if the child is still living at home or in contact with parents. In my work with families with ROGD kids, I have recommended very similar ways of understanding and communicating.
How does one work with you Dr. Goldsmith?
Reach out to therapyfirst.org The individual who receives the emails will be able to connect you to me. Ask for me specifically.
https://www.therapyfirst.org/contact/
Depending on what the child is consuming on SM when they got pulled into the cult, they will estrange very quickly. I know of many parents who are estranged or alienated from their YA kid. This is a sign of a cult - remove all sources of doubt to keep them indoctrinated.