Exploring the cultural and psychological dynamics surrounding gender identity - Stella & Sasha discuss cognitive dissonance and the emotional investment in medical decisions.
In order to avoid doubling down I have found a few things to be very instrumental in allowing people to change their minds.
First they need to be committed to the outcome rather than the process. We want better lives for people who experience GD. If that is what we truly strive for than accepting new data on how to achieve that is easier.
Also people need a pathway to gracefully change their minds and be allowed to do so from those across the aisle.
And we need to practice and teach people how to be wrong. That it is ok to be wrong. We should model and share where and how we ourselves were wrong, how we changed our minds and that changing your mind does not mean giving up on the overarching goal. (Though the initial goal may change or evolve to get at what we truly believe is important)
I have been in something of a cult and it was hard to leave. I was also a true believer of gender ideology. I was able to change my mind, learn and incorporate new information. I do not think I am particularly unique or special but I did spend a good deal of time and energy learning how to do these things.
And one more thing many people think they lack the knowledge to come to these different conclusions. They think there is some information that the activist experts possess that they don’t know or understand. So they think there is more there than there really is and when drawing a conclusion they want to be generous to the side that seems more aligned with their broad values.
Those who are concerned about youth transition and youth gender medicine will only appeal to those people of the message is we also want what is best for young people, we just get there in a different way. People concerned about compassion will never change their minds if it is framed as competing empathy between trans people and women. They may get that aspect eventually but that is not a persuasive argument when they are still firmly believing the TRA talking points.
The “we need more research to see how well this works” and “the evidence is inconclusive” stuff drives me BONKERS. It’s like saying, “Does [x] cure demonic possession? Researchers say [blah blah blah]. The government will be commissioning a systematic review…” Why?! Demonic possession isn’t real! Before you waste a bunch of time trying to establish how to cure it, you need to prove that it exists in the first place. Which you cannot do! It’s an unfalsifiable religious belief, just like gender. I’m sure people who believe themselves to be possessed by demons are in genuine distress, much like people who believe themselves to have been born in the wrong body, but these are nonsensical, metaphysical explanations for that distress and they are not subject to the scientific method. People are entitled to believe in demonic possession and gender Gnosticism, but under no circumstances should institutions of government, science, and medicine behave as though these ideas have any grounding in reality, and it should be understood to be patently unethical for clinicians to intervene upon a healthy body on the basis of these ideas. I am begging everyone to put this shit back in church where it has belonged all along.
Fantastic discussion! As is the case when I listen to many of your podcasts, I can't help but compare the "belief" in the gendered soul with religious beliefs in general. I was raised in a very fundamentalist religion and stayed in it for far too long. What you call "doubling down" those of us who have deconverted from religion call "mental gymnastics." I even wrote a short blog called Mental Gymnastics. (https://wordpress.com/post/whattookmesolongblog.wordpress.com/51)
When you leave religion, you lose a lot. You usually lose many of your friends and sometimes you lose your family. I lost the job I dearly loved. I was a prof at a Christian college. I had to start my life all over again. But it was worth it. For several years, I've been facilitating a peer support group for people who leave religion because it can be traumatic. Psychologist, Dr. Marlene Winell, (https://marlenewinell.net/) coined the term "religious trauma syndrome." Anyway, what I'm getting to is trying to figure out who leave and who stays. Those of us who have left are embarrassed that we could have ever believed those teachings. But those who stay are extremely devout. Some say that "you can't reason someone out of a belief that you were not reasoned into." But I left. However, my sister didn't. We were raised in the same home in exactly the same way but I doubted and she believed. To this day, she is a very devout Christian. This has puzzled me for years. I can't help but believe that there is something different about the brains of people who doubt and manage to leave a strong belief and those who remain true believers. l think the things that are true of religious believers are also true of people who believe in the gendered soul and cults. What do you think?
I had just finished reading How Minds Change by David McRaney.
Your comments regarding inability to persuade someone to shift their belief by providing evidence is a key topic he discusses. But he does suggest other strategies and to appeal to making connections with someone in order to allow them room to ponder on their own time.
When a trans-identifying kid doubles down, it can be intense for the parent. That is the time for parents to perhaps detach a bit and not give energy to that behavior. At the same time, the parent can do whatever it takes to stay grounded to reality and strong. It may be less satisfying for a kid if the parents are busy doing things they enjoy and are not enmeshed in the kid's detrimental behavior.
Agree. I’ve encouraged my daughter since she started saying she was trans that it’s fine to explore ideas and concepts and try different version of you during teenage years. I’ve always told her I’m more of a science gal myself, so I just don’t believe in the idea of gendered souls nor as reason for cosmetic modifications. I’ve also always framed trans ideology at home as like a religion or spirituality similar to deciding to become Buddhist or Christian or Wiccan.
This took a lot of the arguments out of any discussion as I said she can free to have her beliefs if they help her but she also needs to respect me for not being religious.
And that is not appropriate to try to convert others - I once said that her behaviour was being borderline like a religious colonizer (which had an interesting effect on her since in Canada this topic is very much being discussed due to the terrible way our aboriginal Canadians have been treated over the years.) I remind her if she wants to be push trans beliefs, it’s probably better with her friends that may share her ideas of gender souls. But that I always welcome a good discussion about it from a philosophical, scientific or political standpoint as long as she can respect that not everyone needs to share her belief.
I should also probably add that we are very close and although she still says she’s male, it seems to be less and less of a focus over the past year as she’s stated uni and has a more diverse world and her interests are becoming more varied. So I’m hoping she’s starting to own her personality and sense of style as it is without needing to justify it by explaining it as her being an actual male like when she was 13.
Why can’t there be a Dana Scully icon for my daughter’s age group??? Smart, brave, rational and most certainly not an Instagram female trope.
I think the other way forward is to advocate for a more embodied life for young people and old alike. Social media giants and other stakeholders have such an opportunity here, NOT to police or nanny us but to go back to community building IRL.
I really enjoyed this episode. It did make me sad though, as my son (who thinks he is trans) is one of those we may not get back. I know you say that the relationship and breadcrumbs may be the only thing that brings them back, but we are struggling to enjoy being around him (we only have limited time with him in the base case as he does not live with us). How do we spend time together when he desperatlely wants us to buy into believing men can be women and wants us to enjoy and share in his embracing of this and we absolutly do not believe him to be anything but a boy (he says non-binary for now and is mad at us that we do not believe in "transitioning"). He is constantly comparing himself to gays, to mixed couples racism and to blackwomen who white women didn't want in the bathroom with them because they thought blackwomen were violent (like "transwomen"). What do we say to this? You started to talk about how trans isn't the new gay, but more info on how to resond would be helpful.
Our last interaction with my son he told me any recommendations I give are untrustworthy because I don't want him to be trans. I am taking a break from talking to him. I am just unsure if I want to keep putting myself through watching him descend into madness. We are all walking on eggshells around him, it is not enjoyable or authentic. Just not sure where to go. Part of me just wants to distance until/unless he comes to his senses, but then the other part of me worries we are the only ones who can help....but that responsibility is crushing and sucking all of the joy out of our lives. I feel like it is equivalent to why doctors aren't supposed to operate on their own children. Too much emotion and fear is there for us to be effective "therapists".
It was a great episode! I came from the other side of trans debate, at beginning of year I was true believer in trans identity (for like 10 years). Over the years, being argumentative overthinker, I had many doubts in various things constituting paradigm of progressive left - and that’s what made me double down on trans women are women. I had to prove to my group that despite being critical I’m the good one, I belong and agree on the core beliefs.
I see similar trajectory with streamer Vaush (idk how he’s doing in 2024, but I used to watch him a lot), who is smart, often very critical about the left and their agenda, in constant conflict with the left and that’s why he has too commit to core beliefs to not be rejected. Vaush over the years changed views on trans issues from gender abolition to trans activism, from laughing at neopronouns and extensive inclusivity to protecting safe spaces. He went through too much bullying.
I’d be interested in further discussion on the gulf between the generations. It seems to be a given, a point of faith, that trans is a state that they believe in wholeheartedly. They are the future leaders, they are already active in many workplaces - if they believe trans people must be incorporated into law and organisations, isn’t it hard to change a whole generation’s thinking?
I know that seeing people double down after the Cass Review and WPATH files is discouraging. Some people are immune to new evidence, but others will be swayed, especially as the long-term impact of cross-sex hormones becomes evident. Just as there are multiple pathways that lead an individual to "transition", there will be multiple pathways that lead people to stop supporting the medicalization of transition. New evidence will help sway doctors who may be sitting the fence.
So, maybe on a slightly lighter scale, people regretted or doubled-down on the covid-19 vaccines.
It isn't like there's a progression from 'vaxd & happy', to 'perhaps it wasn't helpful', to 'I don't think I should've', to 'I deeply regret. It goes straight to 'I deeply regret'. They hold, they hold, they hold, until suddenly, they flip. Others of course double down. It's a big flip to accept that, firstly you might've hurt yourself, but in people who've pushed or persuaded others, they have to accept their role in giving risk to others, and they have more trouble. In fact, I haven't seen that acknowledged.
Agreed. Covid-19 was a real disease. The vaccine was not as long-lasting as hoped and like all vaccines had side effects, but it significantly slowed the spread.
It's about how the people dealt with cognitive dissonance. My mother was in hospital three days later after multiple falls and died a few weeks later. It wasn't non-serious for all. I saw my siblings move from silence to their alternate explanations, like the alien people.
PS - It's the same issue - people not trusting their bodies. [Ends]
“ I know these people: to them a record of an appearance on a show like Tucker Carlson's is one of the quickest ways to torch that credibility I can think of.”
In order to avoid doubling down I have found a few things to be very instrumental in allowing people to change their minds.
First they need to be committed to the outcome rather than the process. We want better lives for people who experience GD. If that is what we truly strive for than accepting new data on how to achieve that is easier.
Also people need a pathway to gracefully change their minds and be allowed to do so from those across the aisle.
And we need to practice and teach people how to be wrong. That it is ok to be wrong. We should model and share where and how we ourselves were wrong, how we changed our minds and that changing your mind does not mean giving up on the overarching goal. (Though the initial goal may change or evolve to get at what we truly believe is important)
I have been in something of a cult and it was hard to leave. I was also a true believer of gender ideology. I was able to change my mind, learn and incorporate new information. I do not think I am particularly unique or special but I did spend a good deal of time and energy learning how to do these things.
And one more thing many people think they lack the knowledge to come to these different conclusions. They think there is some information that the activist experts possess that they don’t know or understand. So they think there is more there than there really is and when drawing a conclusion they want to be generous to the side that seems more aligned with their broad values.
Those who are concerned about youth transition and youth gender medicine will only appeal to those people of the message is we also want what is best for young people, we just get there in a different way. People concerned about compassion will never change their minds if it is framed as competing empathy between trans people and women. They may get that aspect eventually but that is not a persuasive argument when they are still firmly believing the TRA talking points.
( I posted this comment on the YouTube video too)
Excellent. I agree: "Also people need a pathway to gracefully change their minds and be allowed to do so from those across the aisle.
And we need to practice and teach people how to be wrong."
The “we need more research to see how well this works” and “the evidence is inconclusive” stuff drives me BONKERS. It’s like saying, “Does [x] cure demonic possession? Researchers say [blah blah blah]. The government will be commissioning a systematic review…” Why?! Demonic possession isn’t real! Before you waste a bunch of time trying to establish how to cure it, you need to prove that it exists in the first place. Which you cannot do! It’s an unfalsifiable religious belief, just like gender. I’m sure people who believe themselves to be possessed by demons are in genuine distress, much like people who believe themselves to have been born in the wrong body, but these are nonsensical, metaphysical explanations for that distress and they are not subject to the scientific method. People are entitled to believe in demonic possession and gender Gnosticism, but under no circumstances should institutions of government, science, and medicine behave as though these ideas have any grounding in reality, and it should be understood to be patently unethical for clinicians to intervene upon a healthy body on the basis of these ideas. I am begging everyone to put this shit back in church where it has belonged all along.
Fantastic discussion! As is the case when I listen to many of your podcasts, I can't help but compare the "belief" in the gendered soul with religious beliefs in general. I was raised in a very fundamentalist religion and stayed in it for far too long. What you call "doubling down" those of us who have deconverted from religion call "mental gymnastics." I even wrote a short blog called Mental Gymnastics. (https://wordpress.com/post/whattookmesolongblog.wordpress.com/51)
When you leave religion, you lose a lot. You usually lose many of your friends and sometimes you lose your family. I lost the job I dearly loved. I was a prof at a Christian college. I had to start my life all over again. But it was worth it. For several years, I've been facilitating a peer support group for people who leave religion because it can be traumatic. Psychologist, Dr. Marlene Winell, (https://marlenewinell.net/) coined the term "religious trauma syndrome." Anyway, what I'm getting to is trying to figure out who leave and who stays. Those of us who have left are embarrassed that we could have ever believed those teachings. But those who stay are extremely devout. Some say that "you can't reason someone out of a belief that you were not reasoned into." But I left. However, my sister didn't. We were raised in the same home in exactly the same way but I doubted and she believed. To this day, she is a very devout Christian. This has puzzled me for years. I can't help but believe that there is something different about the brains of people who doubt and manage to leave a strong belief and those who remain true believers. l think the things that are true of religious believers are also true of people who believe in the gendered soul and cults. What do you think?
I had just finished reading How Minds Change by David McRaney.
Your comments regarding inability to persuade someone to shift their belief by providing evidence is a key topic he discusses. But he does suggest other strategies and to appeal to making connections with someone in order to allow them room to ponder on their own time.
When a trans-identifying kid doubles down, it can be intense for the parent. That is the time for parents to perhaps detach a bit and not give energy to that behavior. At the same time, the parent can do whatever it takes to stay grounded to reality and strong. It may be less satisfying for a kid if the parents are busy doing things they enjoy and are not enmeshed in the kid's detrimental behavior.
Agree. I’ve encouraged my daughter since she started saying she was trans that it’s fine to explore ideas and concepts and try different version of you during teenage years. I’ve always told her I’m more of a science gal myself, so I just don’t believe in the idea of gendered souls nor as reason for cosmetic modifications. I’ve also always framed trans ideology at home as like a religion or spirituality similar to deciding to become Buddhist or Christian or Wiccan.
This took a lot of the arguments out of any discussion as I said she can free to have her beliefs if they help her but she also needs to respect me for not being religious.
And that is not appropriate to try to convert others - I once said that her behaviour was being borderline like a religious colonizer (which had an interesting effect on her since in Canada this topic is very much being discussed due to the terrible way our aboriginal Canadians have been treated over the years.) I remind her if she wants to be push trans beliefs, it’s probably better with her friends that may share her ideas of gender souls. But that I always welcome a good discussion about it from a philosophical, scientific or political standpoint as long as she can respect that not everyone needs to share her belief.
I should also probably add that we are very close and although she still says she’s male, it seems to be less and less of a focus over the past year as she’s stated uni and has a more diverse world and her interests are becoming more varied. So I’m hoping she’s starting to own her personality and sense of style as it is without needing to justify it by explaining it as her being an actual male like when she was 13.
Why can’t there be a Dana Scully icon for my daughter’s age group??? Smart, brave, rational and most certainly not an Instagram female trope.
Thanks for this great conversation. We are not getting out of this until we stop policing speech, institutions start telling the truth, we stop the victimhood mentality, and get Hollywood and mega stars on the side of science, truth and reason. The financial incentives are just too high, and we are going even further. Please listen to this report from NPR https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/09/28/1200105467/japanese-scientists-race-to-create-human-eggs-and-sperm-in-the-lab
It supports Jennifer Bilek’s research, too. Curious to get your take on this.
I think the other way forward is to advocate for a more embodied life for young people and old alike. Social media giants and other stakeholders have such an opportunity here, NOT to police or nanny us but to go back to community building IRL.
I really enjoyed this episode. It did make me sad though, as my son (who thinks he is trans) is one of those we may not get back. I know you say that the relationship and breadcrumbs may be the only thing that brings them back, but we are struggling to enjoy being around him (we only have limited time with him in the base case as he does not live with us). How do we spend time together when he desperatlely wants us to buy into believing men can be women and wants us to enjoy and share in his embracing of this and we absolutly do not believe him to be anything but a boy (he says non-binary for now and is mad at us that we do not believe in "transitioning"). He is constantly comparing himself to gays, to mixed couples racism and to blackwomen who white women didn't want in the bathroom with them because they thought blackwomen were violent (like "transwomen"). What do we say to this? You started to talk about how trans isn't the new gay, but more info on how to resond would be helpful.
Our last interaction with my son he told me any recommendations I give are untrustworthy because I don't want him to be trans. I am taking a break from talking to him. I am just unsure if I want to keep putting myself through watching him descend into madness. We are all walking on eggshells around him, it is not enjoyable or authentic. Just not sure where to go. Part of me just wants to distance until/unless he comes to his senses, but then the other part of me worries we are the only ones who can help....but that responsibility is crushing and sucking all of the joy out of our lives. I feel like it is equivalent to why doctors aren't supposed to operate on their own children. Too much emotion and fear is there for us to be effective "therapists".
It was a great episode! I came from the other side of trans debate, at beginning of year I was true believer in trans identity (for like 10 years). Over the years, being argumentative overthinker, I had many doubts in various things constituting paradigm of progressive left - and that’s what made me double down on trans women are women. I had to prove to my group that despite being critical I’m the good one, I belong and agree on the core beliefs.
I see similar trajectory with streamer Vaush (idk how he’s doing in 2024, but I used to watch him a lot), who is smart, often very critical about the left and their agenda, in constant conflict with the left and that’s why he has too commit to core beliefs to not be rejected. Vaush over the years changed views on trans issues from gender abolition to trans activism, from laughing at neopronouns and extensive inclusivity to protecting safe spaces. He went through too much bullying.
I’d be interested in further discussion on the gulf between the generations. It seems to be a given, a point of faith, that trans is a state that they believe in wholeheartedly. They are the future leaders, they are already active in many workplaces - if they believe trans people must be incorporated into law and organisations, isn’t it hard to change a whole generation’s thinking?
I know that seeing people double down after the Cass Review and WPATH files is discouraging. Some people are immune to new evidence, but others will be swayed, especially as the long-term impact of cross-sex hormones becomes evident. Just as there are multiple pathways that lead an individual to "transition", there will be multiple pathways that lead people to stop supporting the medicalization of transition. New evidence will help sway doctors who may be sitting the fence.
Does anyone have the link to the actual reddit post? Thank you
So, maybe on a slightly lighter scale, people regretted or doubled-down on the covid-19 vaccines.
It isn't like there's a progression from 'vaxd & happy', to 'perhaps it wasn't helpful', to 'I don't think I should've', to 'I deeply regret. It goes straight to 'I deeply regret'. They hold, they hold, they hold, until suddenly, they flip. Others of course double down. It's a big flip to accept that, firstly you might've hurt yourself, but in people who've pushed or persuaded others, they have to accept their role in giving risk to others, and they have more trouble. In fact, I haven't seen that acknowledged.
Going to have to be very, very compassionate - 'you did the best you know' - 'you did what the authorities told you', etc.
Agreed. Covid-19 was a real disease. The vaccine was not as long-lasting as hoped and like all vaccines had side effects, but it significantly slowed the spread.
It's about how the people dealt with cognitive dissonance. My mother was in hospital three days later after multiple falls and died a few weeks later. It wasn't non-serious for all. I saw my siblings move from silence to their alternate explanations, like the alien people.
PS - It's the same issue - people not trusting their bodies. [Ends]
100%!
“ I know these people: to them a record of an appearance on a show like Tucker Carlson's is one of the quickest ways to torch that credibility I can think of.”
I like the team kindness 😎 I also often use the slogan ‘help save gender dysphoric kids’