I can't help feeling that the current assault on childhood therapy here and elsewhere is rooted more in subjective philosophy and politics than in objective science. In particular, this trend seems to reflect an almost religious faith in the beneficial properties of suffering and the fatalism that attends the Biblical view that humans live in a fallen creation.
I am also justifiably wary of absolute statements like the following:
"The role of societal messaging and the mindfulness movement in perpetuating the idea that negative experiences can always be traced back to childhood trauma or parenting mistakes."
I would think that the hosts of this podcast would be sufficiently sophisticated to eschew assertions that employ words such as "always" because they're simply not credible.
Furthermore, since common sense and life experience support the notion that poor parenting (which is real) and childhood trauma (which is also real) can cause emotional and psychological harm that continues into adulthood, the burden is on the hosts of the podcast and/or their guests to make a convincing case for other causal factors. Rhetorical statements such as the foregoing passage have a harmful invalidating effect without giving people any other way of understanding their lives.
I've done a lot of work on parenting education with people who were abused and trying to break the cycle, and one of the harshest things I have been confronted with is that it is not as easy as teaching different techniques. For a historical example, Abraham Lincoln's father was very authoritarian, harsh and punitive. Meanwhile Abraham Lincoln became a very permissive parent. His sons would tear apart his law office and when his partner would ask him to intervene he would just smile at his boys lovingly.
From what I've seen with parents like President Lincoln is that they don't want to make the mistakes their parents did, but they also don't have the skills to emotionally regulate themselves if they try to set limits in a way that is not abusive because of how they were harmed by their parents, so they retreat completely and fail to set limits. Meanwhile, the only son of Abraham Lincoln who survived to have children, in a backlash to his father, became more authoritarian like his grandfather. This generational flip flop is rather common.
And I think the heartbreaking this is for parents like Abraham who are trying to do better than their parents and find that their children are suffering is that there's this sense of, "I'm not hitting you! Your childhood is so much better than mine was! Why aren't you happy and healthy all the time?" They feel betrayed.
Back in Abraham's day there was no system in place to diagnose his boys with ADHD and put them on Ritalin, Abilify and goodness knows what else, but these days I think it's tempting for parents in Abe's shoes to say, "I'm doing everything right! I'm doing everything better than my parents! There must be something wrong with my kid!" They're doing a tremendous job by breaking toxic cycles in their family and sadly it isn't enough. And thus we have teenagers with a laundry list of diagnosis and medications.
And putting the child on medication is a lot easier than sitting down with the parent and addressing unhealed aspects of the parent and helping them regulate and resolve their ambivalence around setting limits or their ability to tolerate times when their child is distressed because, let's face it, there are going to be times when a child is in distress.
I think you also have to throw in the fact that there is no village helping parents and their children anymore, and that village was a source of resilience for the fact that no parent is perfect and that no one gets through life without being hurt at times or treated unfairly. In my experience if you talk to children there's usually a logic to their distress, but it's easier to put them on medication than to change the society that child is in, even though it's far less effective.
I keep meaning to read more Adler because I heard he focused on society a bit.
"And putting the child on medication is a lot harder than sitting down with the parent and addressing unhealed aspects of the parent and helping them regulate and resolve their ambivalence around setting limits or their ability to tolerate times when their child is distressed because, let's face it, there are going to be times when a child is in distress."
Did you mean to say "putting a child on medication is a lot easier than sitting down . . ."?
It seems to me that working with the parent would be orders of magnitude harder than giving Timmy a pill.
Did you know that the parenting shows actually started much earlier in the US in the early 1980s? There were parenting classes at the YMCA that had been intended for younger or marginalized parents that filled up with middle class parents who weren’t confident about what they were doing. This is when the “Love and Logic” parenting classes started. There were phone in radio programs (think Fraser Crane) and a hugely influential PBS series with T Barry Brazelton.
What happened as a result was that parents began to internalize much of advise and to take it further with a sort of over think. There were other things going on too, like the discovery of fMRi scans that led parents to believe they could shape their baby’s brains. The (mainly bogus) Bruce Perry idea that trauma could cause brain damage led parents to try to shield their kids from any negative, difficult emotions.
This evolved into what we see today.
I think that what Sasha is picking up on with over involved, over confident parents is that they have so internalized expert childrearing that they feel supremely confident because every thing in society and culture is backing them up.
Personally I think the answer has so be to knit up the wisdom of the past (which it’s rejects out of hand now) with the needs of families and children now. I also think it really has to involve families and not just parents and kids. You can’t raise children through the force of parent child relationship. It’s too intense.
Loved the preamble of this session, about how different you both are! I think celebrating and understanding difference of character is so important in significant relationships … business too I guess. Just takes away from unhelpful judgement 👏🏻
I can't help feeling that the current assault on childhood therapy here and elsewhere is rooted more in subjective philosophy and politics than in objective science. In particular, this trend seems to reflect an almost religious faith in the beneficial properties of suffering and the fatalism that attends the Biblical view that humans live in a fallen creation.
I am also justifiably wary of absolute statements like the following:
"The role of societal messaging and the mindfulness movement in perpetuating the idea that negative experiences can always be traced back to childhood trauma or parenting mistakes."
I would think that the hosts of this podcast would be sufficiently sophisticated to eschew assertions that employ words such as "always" because they're simply not credible.
Furthermore, since common sense and life experience support the notion that poor parenting (which is real) and childhood trauma (which is also real) can cause emotional and psychological harm that continues into adulthood, the burden is on the hosts of the podcast and/or their guests to make a convincing case for other causal factors. Rhetorical statements such as the foregoing passage have a harmful invalidating effect without giving people any other way of understanding their lives.
I've done a lot of work on parenting education with people who were abused and trying to break the cycle, and one of the harshest things I have been confronted with is that it is not as easy as teaching different techniques. For a historical example, Abraham Lincoln's father was very authoritarian, harsh and punitive. Meanwhile Abraham Lincoln became a very permissive parent. His sons would tear apart his law office and when his partner would ask him to intervene he would just smile at his boys lovingly.
From what I've seen with parents like President Lincoln is that they don't want to make the mistakes their parents did, but they also don't have the skills to emotionally regulate themselves if they try to set limits in a way that is not abusive because of how they were harmed by their parents, so they retreat completely and fail to set limits. Meanwhile, the only son of Abraham Lincoln who survived to have children, in a backlash to his father, became more authoritarian like his grandfather. This generational flip flop is rather common.
And I think the heartbreaking this is for parents like Abraham who are trying to do better than their parents and find that their children are suffering is that there's this sense of, "I'm not hitting you! Your childhood is so much better than mine was! Why aren't you happy and healthy all the time?" They feel betrayed.
Back in Abraham's day there was no system in place to diagnose his boys with ADHD and put them on Ritalin, Abilify and goodness knows what else, but these days I think it's tempting for parents in Abe's shoes to say, "I'm doing everything right! I'm doing everything better than my parents! There must be something wrong with my kid!" They're doing a tremendous job by breaking toxic cycles in their family and sadly it isn't enough. And thus we have teenagers with a laundry list of diagnosis and medications.
And putting the child on medication is a lot easier than sitting down with the parent and addressing unhealed aspects of the parent and helping them regulate and resolve their ambivalence around setting limits or their ability to tolerate times when their child is distressed because, let's face it, there are going to be times when a child is in distress.
I think you also have to throw in the fact that there is no village helping parents and their children anymore, and that village was a source of resilience for the fact that no parent is perfect and that no one gets through life without being hurt at times or treated unfairly. In my experience if you talk to children there's usually a logic to their distress, but it's easier to put them on medication than to change the society that child is in, even though it's far less effective.
I keep meaning to read more Adler because I heard he focused on society a bit.
"And putting the child on medication is a lot harder than sitting down with the parent and addressing unhealed aspects of the parent and helping them regulate and resolve their ambivalence around setting limits or their ability to tolerate times when their child is distressed because, let's face it, there are going to be times when a child is in distress."
Did you mean to say "putting a child on medication is a lot easier than sitting down . . ."?
It seems to me that working with the parent would be orders of magnitude harder than giving Timmy a pill.
Yes, sorry, I have corrected it.
I have so much to say on this.
Did you know that the parenting shows actually started much earlier in the US in the early 1980s? There were parenting classes at the YMCA that had been intended for younger or marginalized parents that filled up with middle class parents who weren’t confident about what they were doing. This is when the “Love and Logic” parenting classes started. There were phone in radio programs (think Fraser Crane) and a hugely influential PBS series with T Barry Brazelton.
What happened as a result was that parents began to internalize much of advise and to take it further with a sort of over think. There were other things going on too, like the discovery of fMRi scans that led parents to believe they could shape their baby’s brains. The (mainly bogus) Bruce Perry idea that trauma could cause brain damage led parents to try to shield their kids from any negative, difficult emotions.
This evolved into what we see today.
I think that what Sasha is picking up on with over involved, over confident parents is that they have so internalized expert childrearing that they feel supremely confident because every thing in society and culture is backing them up.
Personally I think the answer has so be to knit up the wisdom of the past (which it’s rejects out of hand now) with the needs of families and children now. I also think it really has to involve families and not just parents and kids. You can’t raise children through the force of parent child relationship. It’s too intense.
Loved the preamble of this session, about how different you both are! I think celebrating and understanding difference of character is so important in significant relationships … business too I guess. Just takes away from unhelpful judgement 👏🏻
“The future is tidy” makes me soooo happy… probably would strike fear into my husband.