Gender: A Wider Lens
Gender: A Wider Lens
51 - Clearing of the Pink Mist: A Conversation w/ Debbie Hayton

51 - Clearing of the Pink Mist: A Conversation w/ Debbie Hayton


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UK transwoman Debbie Hayton discusses how she came to the decision to medically transition when she was a 44-year-old father of 3 children. We discuss Debbie’s appearance in Stella’s film, Trans Kids: It’s Time to Talk and the intense public reaction to her story. Male sexuality, shame, and autogynephilia are explored openly in a bid to gain a deeper understanding of the complicated mosaic of traits that encompass MtF transition. She also shares how she became disillusioned with transgender ideology and coined the phrase, “trans women are men. Get over it.”


Critically Examining the Doctrine of Gender Identity with Rebecca Reilly-Cooper:

Magdalen Berns on Alex Drummond:

Miranda Yardley:

Debbie’s Website:

Extended Notes:

  • Stella talks about the 2018 film, Trans Kids, and how people misinterpreted how Debbie emerged in that film.

  • How is it for a family when there is a late transition? Debbie transitioned at 44 years old with a wife and three children.

  • Debbie shares the answer to the big question on why the chronic condition of the dissatisfaction of her sex and body suddenly became acute.

  • Could there have been a therapy or experience that may have pulled her back from transitioning?

  • Debbie shares how she used shame, guilt, and fear as powerful emotions to control her desire to dress as a girl at four years old.

  • Debbie describes how she sees autogynephilia as a sexuality and how you can be attracted to your own body where it can be the focus of your sexual interest.

  • The male sexual drive is so powerful and there is a need to control it. Has Debbie now been freed from that after her transition?

  • Sasha wonders, if Debbie stumbled upon gender dysphoria or autogynephilia and how it manifests in some male people before her transformation, would it have changed what she felt she needed to do or how she managed her feelings?

  • Stella and Sasha also discuss how people can be compulsive with their feelings about gender and ask Debbie about her thoughts on gender euphoria and the “pink mist.”

  • Is there a way for the autogynephilic to operate in the world without asking other people to buy into the narrative that they’re a woman? Debbie shares what helped her lift her pink mist.

  • Should transwomen go through synthetic menopause and, if so, what are the potential negative effects of that?

  • Debbie shares how she feels about her body now, her current beliefs about her sexuality, and how she interacts with it in the world around her.

This podcast is partially sponsored by ReIME, Rethink Identity Medicine Ethics:

Learn more about our show:

Gender: A Wider Lens
Gender: A Wider Lens
Therapists Stella O’Malley and Sasha Ayad explore diverse perspectives through a psychological lens, fostering open dialogue on gender identity, transition, and the transgender umbrella. Their work with gender dysphoric clients and unique experiences yield an informed outlook delving into gender's psychological nuances. Interviews with clinicians, academics, transgender individuals, parents, detransitioners, and others touched by gender provide varied insights and intimate inquiry into the taboo yet relevant topic.