I was raised atheist in the American Bible Belt and came of age in 2000. Before I anger everyone with my comment, I do want to emphasize that through this journey I have come to the conclusion that groupthink is a problem in every belief system and that no religious or non religious group has a monopoly on morality. Seeing atheists act the same way that Christians did when I was growing up has been bitterly disillusioning to me and I just sort of despair of finding a group that tolerates people who think outside of the box. That said, given how I have seen the trans cult decimate my family of origin I have been encouraging my kids to follow their father's Catholic faith, which I NEVER would have thought of doing five years earlier.
As someone who went to high school in the southern US in the 1990s and was not Christian I think the idea that Christians don't see their belief reflected in society hard to believe. The Born Again Christian movement was at its height of popularity then, I was bullied for being an open atheist, and my friends who were Muslim, Jewish and Buddhists were targeted for proselytizing. Christain themes dominated the literature. We read "Canterbury Tales" and Dante. One of my Muslim friends was really hurt by a drawing we were shown in school depicting Dante's version of Hell that had Muhammed in one of the deepest layers of Hell though she also understood the importance of the work to Western literature. When we read "Crime and Punishment" I had to explain to one of my Hindu friends the significance of washing a prostitute's feet in Christianity (and even though I was not raised Christian I knew the significance just by observing the general culture). I don't think Christians realize how deeply Christianity is embedded in our culture even with separation of church and state. A lot of Christians would assume that since I was an atheist I was ignorant of their religion and leave shaken after a conversation with me when I would shower them with all I knew.
I got a reputation for being brave for openly pushing back against the conservative Christian culture there. While my best friend was a Baptist I made a lot of friends with immigrants who were from differing religious backgrounds because I didn't try to convert them and they didn't try to convert me and we respected our differences. Most of them tried to keep a low profile but I tended to be open about what I believe.
My parents were active in separation of church and state issues and we read magazines about the issue. Christians were constantly trying to get prayer back in school or introduce legislation to promote Christianity. In my state they added a moment of silence after the pledge to slip in time to encourage kids to pray in school. Really everyone would sit and stare at each other. We would have school speakers promote Christianity (and my family would always complain) and I stopped going to a school choir after they gave us a song to sing that was overtly Christian and I didn't feel like I could sing it authentically. There were many other instances like this.
After I graduated in my state they passed legislation requiring students to recite the state pledge in addition to our country's pledge and then they changed our state pledge to include a "under god" reference to force kids to say "under god" again. Let me say the whole "under god" think caused me so much anguish growing up because I didn't want to say something I didn't believe but I was terrified a teacher would notice I was silent for two words and I would get in trouble.
All this to say that in the southern US, Christianity was very much a part of the culture and there was NOTHING brave about a Christian speaking out in defense of Christianity. S/he would be given a round of applause and pats on the back.
I do think in more liberal areas this is not the case but my children's school hands out Christian material and encourages Christian after school clubs. I don't think they would survive a legal challenge but I also know what it was like to live with that anxiety of being opposed to the popular culture while growing up and I just don't want to put my kids through that.
One thing my family got a lot of flak for was how we couldn't be moral people because we were atheists. Thing is we had to have been the most boring immoral people ever. My parents didn't drink or use drugs or sleep around. They were responsible. My sister and I were AP/Honor roll kids who never got in trouble. We volunteered at local charities and my mom worked at a nonprofit. We've never been to jail. We weren't party animals. We read a lot, watched movies and played Putt Putt. We rescued stray animals. The attacks on us as immoral people were really hurtful basically.
I do think when the New Atheist movement rose, it felt like our time had finally come. People were criticizing a lot of Christians for their hypocritical morality (let me say, if more Christians acted like Sister Julienne on the show "Call the Midwife" it would be a lot harder for this to have had any weight). Given how hurtful a lot of the comments growing up about my family were it felt good that others were seeing the hypocrisy and demanding change. And it was strange as people who I knew were Christians growing up found me later and told me they no longer believed. I honestly had never cared about converting others, if religion helped them then that was good for them. I just wanted that same respect to disagree back in return. It was validating to see other people embrace my point of view even if I was mystified by it.
One thing that has been hard for me when it comes to speaking out publicly on the trans cult though is that I had accepted that some conservatives and Christians would disagree with me and be ugly to me a long time ago. That's no skin off my back. But seeing people who I used to agree with doing the exact same thing that we have criticized Christians for is terrifying. Realizing that my sister, who grew up knowing what it is like to be bullied for believing in one less god than everyone else would be willing to never talk to me again for being a biological realist has been devastating. I do not think I will ever be able to forgive her because she should have known better. I can forgive a Southern Baptist more readily because they did not experience what this was like in the way my sister did and did not understand the pain they were inflicting. No excuses, my sister should have known better. And I think this is part of the reason why the trans cult has such a grip on people who were atheists BEFORE atheism became popular. Many of us know what it is like to be outcasts and are terrified to go back to that and to experience it with people we used to agree with and who had our backs when larger society did not.
I think something different is going on with the New Atheists though. The people who I know who went from Born Again Christian to New Atheist do not have a strong sense of self and I suspect that once the conservative backlash is in full swing many will move into whatever popular movement it is that takes its place.
As for me there just isn't a spark of religious belief. Even my Catholic husband admits that organized religion would be a poor fit for me. My focus now is on framing things so it is clear that both secular and religious organizations are capable of great good and great harm, no one has a monopoly on morality, popular ideas need to be challenged, and authoritarianism poisons any movement or religion it touches. Basically this movement has taught me to value whoever it is that speaks out. It does not mean they are right but ideas need to be challenged and any group can weaponize moral authority in inhumane ways.
"Winston Marshall explores the transformative power of faith in overcoming personal struggles, noting a cultural revival of Christianity in intellectual circles as a response to the void left by atheism and the rise of ideologies like trans activism."
Let's assume for the sake of argument that Christianity repudiated the repressive and sects and beliefs that make a mockery of Jesus' command that we love one another. Suppose Evangelical Protestantism abandoned its hatred of modern ways and mores, especially those having to do with sex, gay sex, sex roles and the equality of women. Imagine also that the Catholic Church gave up its compulsion to control humankind's sexuality in order to extirpate all non-procreative sex (see Natural Law) and use the instruments of government to impose civil disabilities on the noncompliant (see 303 Creative v. Elenis 600 U.S. 570). The great sticking point would still be faith.
Lord knows that throughout history many Christians have tried to compel faith (or the appearance of faith) in others, but it cannot be done.
I am a gay man and an atheist in my late 60s. It offends me deeply that a Christian chauvinist would presume to conclude that atheists exist in a void of some sort because they are not believers in things for which there is no proof. Yes, we do know the difference between right and wrong without having to be reminded every Sunday.
Now, I am not a card-carrying doctrinaire atheist for whom atheism is a surrogate for the religion that I have rejected. I have no more interest in marinating my mind in the atheist canon of Hitchens et al. than I do in poking my fingers into the tar baby that is Christianity. That way lies scrupulosity (like the teen Evangelical boy who would grab the latest issue of Sports Illustrated when it came through the mailbox so he could rip out all the smutty pages) or a barren plain perforated by infinite rabbit holes full of different dictates about how I should think and behave because of this or that pastor's interpretation of this or that passage in the Bible.
In closing, of course it's clear that this episode is meant to be an exploration of thought provoking ideas and not a sermon. It worked! This listener was provoked into putting his thoughts in writing.
Richard Dawkins is one of the few atheists who is clear that it’s above all a matter of evidence and reason, not belief. He resigned from an atheist organisation on that. If you read his full thinking eg “The God Delusion” you can be hugely inspired and educated about science and reason. But also inspired about how he values all the other higher moral and artistic awe that is not found only in supernatural religions. His Substack is named “… Poetry ….”. He has specifically criticised and classed gender identity ideology as having the typical features of an authoritarian anti-evidence-based religious belief system, although it purports to be secular and has stacks of pseudo-science in it’s (“No”!?) debate arsenal. Here’s a starter from RD:
Personally I can see why we may all want a God or strong ideology to call on or guide us. But I know that a humanist funeral is more effective than a church one. Also I know that many of the best people quietly draw strength from spiritual sources. But when push comes to shove, it’s the process or ideology of liberalism and evidence and reason that I trust most. The best prolific (if not the only!) reliable source on that score is Helen Pluckrose here on Substack. As Stella and Sasha know to their benefit.
Speaking of « god-shaped holes » and drawing strength from spiritual sources, Jonathan Haidt has a section on this in his book The Anxious Generation. That’s about the harm caused by the loss of a play-based childhood plus the recent addictive smartphone-based childhood. He is an atheist but suggests that some of the rituals and richness humans have universally benefited from under a framework of religion are part of an answer to the harm. They don’t need to be done for supernatural reasons.
We LOVE Mumford and Sons here in Virginia, USA! Especially because of the banjo😂. I unapologetically love country music, too, sooooo, there is that.
We have enjoyed M &Sons music for years and this was an exciting interview for me to watch. I am not on Twitter so was only vaguely aware of the saga. Love the idea of Stella and Winston playing together. That was cute.
I was raised atheist in the American Bible Belt and came of age in 2000. Before I anger everyone with my comment, I do want to emphasize that through this journey I have come to the conclusion that groupthink is a problem in every belief system and that no religious or non religious group has a monopoly on morality. Seeing atheists act the same way that Christians did when I was growing up has been bitterly disillusioning to me and I just sort of despair of finding a group that tolerates people who think outside of the box. That said, given how I have seen the trans cult decimate my family of origin I have been encouraging my kids to follow their father's Catholic faith, which I NEVER would have thought of doing five years earlier.
As someone who went to high school in the southern US in the 1990s and was not Christian I think the idea that Christians don't see their belief reflected in society hard to believe. The Born Again Christian movement was at its height of popularity then, I was bullied for being an open atheist, and my friends who were Muslim, Jewish and Buddhists were targeted for proselytizing. Christain themes dominated the literature. We read "Canterbury Tales" and Dante. One of my Muslim friends was really hurt by a drawing we were shown in school depicting Dante's version of Hell that had Muhammed in one of the deepest layers of Hell though she also understood the importance of the work to Western literature. When we read "Crime and Punishment" I had to explain to one of my Hindu friends the significance of washing a prostitute's feet in Christianity (and even though I was not raised Christian I knew the significance just by observing the general culture). I don't think Christians realize how deeply Christianity is embedded in our culture even with separation of church and state. A lot of Christians would assume that since I was an atheist I was ignorant of their religion and leave shaken after a conversation with me when I would shower them with all I knew.
I got a reputation for being brave for openly pushing back against the conservative Christian culture there. While my best friend was a Baptist I made a lot of friends with immigrants who were from differing religious backgrounds because I didn't try to convert them and they didn't try to convert me and we respected our differences. Most of them tried to keep a low profile but I tended to be open about what I believe.
My parents were active in separation of church and state issues and we read magazines about the issue. Christians were constantly trying to get prayer back in school or introduce legislation to promote Christianity. In my state they added a moment of silence after the pledge to slip in time to encourage kids to pray in school. Really everyone would sit and stare at each other. We would have school speakers promote Christianity (and my family would always complain) and I stopped going to a school choir after they gave us a song to sing that was overtly Christian and I didn't feel like I could sing it authentically. There were many other instances like this.
After I graduated in my state they passed legislation requiring students to recite the state pledge in addition to our country's pledge and then they changed our state pledge to include a "under god" reference to force kids to say "under god" again. Let me say the whole "under god" think caused me so much anguish growing up because I didn't want to say something I didn't believe but I was terrified a teacher would notice I was silent for two words and I would get in trouble.
All this to say that in the southern US, Christianity was very much a part of the culture and there was NOTHING brave about a Christian speaking out in defense of Christianity. S/he would be given a round of applause and pats on the back.
I do think in more liberal areas this is not the case but my children's school hands out Christian material and encourages Christian after school clubs. I don't think they would survive a legal challenge but I also know what it was like to live with that anxiety of being opposed to the popular culture while growing up and I just don't want to put my kids through that.
One thing my family got a lot of flak for was how we couldn't be moral people because we were atheists. Thing is we had to have been the most boring immoral people ever. My parents didn't drink or use drugs or sleep around. They were responsible. My sister and I were AP/Honor roll kids who never got in trouble. We volunteered at local charities and my mom worked at a nonprofit. We've never been to jail. We weren't party animals. We read a lot, watched movies and played Putt Putt. We rescued stray animals. The attacks on us as immoral people were really hurtful basically.
I do think when the New Atheist movement rose, it felt like our time had finally come. People were criticizing a lot of Christians for their hypocritical morality (let me say, if more Christians acted like Sister Julienne on the show "Call the Midwife" it would be a lot harder for this to have had any weight). Given how hurtful a lot of the comments growing up about my family were it felt good that others were seeing the hypocrisy and demanding change. And it was strange as people who I knew were Christians growing up found me later and told me they no longer believed. I honestly had never cared about converting others, if religion helped them then that was good for them. I just wanted that same respect to disagree back in return. It was validating to see other people embrace my point of view even if I was mystified by it.
One thing that has been hard for me when it comes to speaking out publicly on the trans cult though is that I had accepted that some conservatives and Christians would disagree with me and be ugly to me a long time ago. That's no skin off my back. But seeing people who I used to agree with doing the exact same thing that we have criticized Christians for is terrifying. Realizing that my sister, who grew up knowing what it is like to be bullied for believing in one less god than everyone else would be willing to never talk to me again for being a biological realist has been devastating. I do not think I will ever be able to forgive her because she should have known better. I can forgive a Southern Baptist more readily because they did not experience what this was like in the way my sister did and did not understand the pain they were inflicting. No excuses, my sister should have known better. And I think this is part of the reason why the trans cult has such a grip on people who were atheists BEFORE atheism became popular. Many of us know what it is like to be outcasts and are terrified to go back to that and to experience it with people we used to agree with and who had our backs when larger society did not.
I think something different is going on with the New Atheists though. The people who I know who went from Born Again Christian to New Atheist do not have a strong sense of self and I suspect that once the conservative backlash is in full swing many will move into whatever popular movement it is that takes its place.
As for me there just isn't a spark of religious belief. Even my Catholic husband admits that organized religion would be a poor fit for me. My focus now is on framing things so it is clear that both secular and religious organizations are capable of great good and great harm, no one has a monopoly on morality, popular ideas need to be challenged, and authoritarianism poisons any movement or religion it touches. Basically this movement has taught me to value whoever it is that speaks out. It does not mean they are right but ideas need to be challenged and any group can weaponize moral authority in inhumane ways.
"Winston Marshall explores the transformative power of faith in overcoming personal struggles, noting a cultural revival of Christianity in intellectual circles as a response to the void left by atheism and the rise of ideologies like trans activism."
Let's assume for the sake of argument that Christianity repudiated the repressive and sects and beliefs that make a mockery of Jesus' command that we love one another. Suppose Evangelical Protestantism abandoned its hatred of modern ways and mores, especially those having to do with sex, gay sex, sex roles and the equality of women. Imagine also that the Catholic Church gave up its compulsion to control humankind's sexuality in order to extirpate all non-procreative sex (see Natural Law) and use the instruments of government to impose civil disabilities on the noncompliant (see 303 Creative v. Elenis 600 U.S. 570). The great sticking point would still be faith.
Lord knows that throughout history many Christians have tried to compel faith (or the appearance of faith) in others, but it cannot be done.
I am a gay man and an atheist in my late 60s. It offends me deeply that a Christian chauvinist would presume to conclude that atheists exist in a void of some sort because they are not believers in things for which there is no proof. Yes, we do know the difference between right and wrong without having to be reminded every Sunday.
Now, I am not a card-carrying doctrinaire atheist for whom atheism is a surrogate for the religion that I have rejected. I have no more interest in marinating my mind in the atheist canon of Hitchens et al. than I do in poking my fingers into the tar baby that is Christianity. That way lies scrupulosity (like the teen Evangelical boy who would grab the latest issue of Sports Illustrated when it came through the mailbox so he could rip out all the smutty pages) or a barren plain perforated by infinite rabbit holes full of different dictates about how I should think and behave because of this or that pastor's interpretation of this or that passage in the Bible.
In closing, of course it's clear that this episode is meant to be an exploration of thought provoking ideas and not a sermon. It worked! This listener was provoked into putting his thoughts in writing.
Richard Dawkins is one of the few atheists who is clear that it’s above all a matter of evidence and reason, not belief. He resigned from an atheist organisation on that. If you read his full thinking eg “The God Delusion” you can be hugely inspired and educated about science and reason. But also inspired about how he values all the other higher moral and artistic awe that is not found only in supernatural religions. His Substack is named “… Poetry ….”. He has specifically criticised and classed gender identity ideology as having the typical features of an authoritarian anti-evidence-based religious belief system, although it purports to be secular and has stacks of pseudo-science in it’s (“No”!?) debate arsenal. Here’s a starter from RD:
https://richarddawkins.substack.com/p/the-myth-of-the-god-shaped-hole
Personally I can see why we may all want a God or strong ideology to call on or guide us. But I know that a humanist funeral is more effective than a church one. Also I know that many of the best people quietly draw strength from spiritual sources. But when push comes to shove, it’s the process or ideology of liberalism and evidence and reason that I trust most. The best prolific (if not the only!) reliable source on that score is Helen Pluckrose here on Substack. As Stella and Sasha know to their benefit.
Speaking of « god-shaped holes » and drawing strength from spiritual sources, Jonathan Haidt has a section on this in his book The Anxious Generation. That’s about the harm caused by the loss of a play-based childhood plus the recent addictive smartphone-based childhood. He is an atheist but suggests that some of the rituals and richness humans have universally benefited from under a framework of religion are part of an answer to the harm. They don’t need to be done for supernatural reasons.
We LOVE Mumford and Sons here in Virginia, USA! Especially because of the banjo😂. I unapologetically love country music, too, sooooo, there is that.
We have enjoyed M &Sons music for years and this was an exciting interview for me to watch. I am not on Twitter so was only vaguely aware of the saga. Love the idea of Stella and Winston playing together. That was cute.
Stella:“Why do people hate the banjo?
Winston: Whats to like?”
That was hilarious. 😂🎶. Great insights. Thanks.