AHHH! I can't wait to hear this! Dorky Freya India fan girl over here!
I'm so happy you got her on the pod. Since 2018 I've been trying to crack the case regarding how my GenZ daughter ended up in numerous long, costly psych hospitalizations with no neurodivergence and limited (not "none") adversity in her life. I ended up getting a good handle on the issues at play following Jonathan Haidts work, Jean Twenge, Greg Lukianoff, and many others including Meghan Daum, Sarah Haider, Gender a Wider Lens, Helen Plukrose, James Lindsay, Coleman Hughes, Free Black Thought, Erec Smith, John McWhorter, Jesse Singal, Bari Weiss, Eliza Mondegren, Abigail Schrier, Yascha Mounk, nd many more... omg I could go on and on and on because there are so many pieces to the puzzle (its not just tech, especially if you are black)...
But Freya was indeed the woman who gave me a glimple into my daughters lived experience in such a salient way it was almost too shocking to bear at first. I remember reading that first piece posted at After Babel. I curled up into a hyperventilating ball of tears before forwarding it to all my friends. There is something about how viscerally she describes what should shock most people yet has become banal to most. It was a almost a vindication for me, a message from the universe that I'm not crazy even though I couldn't put what was happening into words. I mean, not many of us can, right? The sad truth is, the vast majority of GenZ is too caught up in "the river", as I call it, to step back and report on what is happening to them and around them. Meanwhile parents are shut out like never before in history. Which is why I think a big part of Freya's strength is in supplying her readers with shocking yet al too common evidence that most of us older adults would never come across.
We as a modern society in the digital age have a long way to go, but the work you all have put in and the strides that have been made over the past couple years has restored my faith in humanity (and believe me, my faith was GONE). So, I thank you!!! And so do my younger daughters coming up at age 9 and 11. They will have a chance because of the brave (or masochistic?) people who have tirelessly spoken out. As for my 21yo? She recently admitted, after months she reluctantly read Freya's article I sent. "Yeah... I followed her, she's cool". That's all I got on the topic but its something precious to me considering where we've been. I can be patient but patience requires faith so I'm glad I got that back!
Anyway, sorry for the monologue. I haven't even listened yet but Im all excited!
This is beautiful and we will pass this comment along to Freya! Please pop back over and tell us what you thought of the episode, after you listen! We are huge Freya fans around here, too!
Wow. This was such an interesting episode! As a side note, I’m very interested in Stella’s point about the illusion of a “true self”. I think this is perhaps one of the most pervasive ideas at the center of a lot of the gender ideology as well as some of the pop-psychology/ “spiritual” sides of the internet. I’m in agreement that this idea can be harmful and very black and white. Would love to hear another more in depth conversation around that idea!
Yes ! I always thought this idea of a true self, which needs this or that to express itself fully, ridiculous. Yes, we can repress part of ourselves for many reasons but if you need to change your body or whatever else to be "who you really are"... it's so obvious it truly is the fantasy of who you want to be and not some hidden you within yourself.
I just wanted to share as I was listening I began to think that it’s possible the nostalgia for gen z is driven by the desire to connect to the older generation. To want them to understand what you’re going through or to want to live in a time where your parents can actually give you advice on how to navigate the world because they have gone through it. Gen z knows their parents didn’t grow up with that technology or have to learn how to live in this same social media world and part of wanting to be in a before Era is wanting some security in how to navigate their lives. Of course the lack of real connection drives it too like you all spoke about. But I think there’s also a large part that these young people know that their parents don’t get it and that is really destabilizing when you are young.
I really enjoyed this perspective, especially as an older millennial (xennial). I think we need more awareness of what is happening with social media and how this is impacting young people. As a parent of a 13 and a 10 year old I am very concerned about the pitfalls ahead as they navigate this online world that I can not keep up with, and the knowledge that even if I ban social media and smart phones in the home they will contend with friends being hooked on it is a challenge. It takes so much effort and going through a lot of rejection to find like minded families (though it's worth it), but it's hard enough at forty and even harder as a teen. Here I am hoping to keep my kids off phones and social media and asking that they avoid the easy but unfulfilling way to make friends. It feels like an impossible task. I def plan to show this video to my kids because I think awareness is going to be my best weapon.
Here's the other thing. I feel Gen Z is much more aware than the Boomers are of the problems with social media and Gen Z deserves props for acknowledging that it is a problem. I think many people who are millennials and younger who have kids are aware of the impact this is having. I'm not really sure about Gen X, but Boomers like my parents, who had raised their kids before social media became a big thing seem to have their heads in the sand and I feel as though my dad treats me like Chicken Little every time I talk about my concerns over navigating my kids through the challenges of raising them in a world filled with social media. Even though I feel that social media has had a deleterious effect on both my mom and my sister, both of whom have OCD.
Social media is like cocaine for someone with OCD, and my Boomer mother was no match for it. She became obsessed about how often I was posting pics of my kids on Facebook and would pressure me to post more and wrap other family members into pressuring me to post more. It got to a point where she would flame me because I was not posting enough even though I posted more pictures than most people did of their kids. My pleas to my dad that this was not normal and that she needed help were ignored. I finally stood up to her and took control of the situation but she would barely speak to me after that and always with a tone of how ridiculous I was being. My mom has since died as a result of unmanaged OCD (which also took the form of workaholism and she literally worked until she dropped due to stroke and her kidneys gave out). As for my sister, she got heavy into the gender ideology stuff and is shunning me for questioning it. I think an integral part of gender ideology and internet mental health in general is "I am not responsible for managing my anxiety, the world is responsible for doing it for me" and it was rather attractive for my sister. Being the only family member who sees that is a problem and who does not enable has been hard, and harder still because unlike things like alcoholism, the ways that harms manifest through social media are so new and bizarre that they aren't recognized as harmful. I know lots of people who lost a family member to addiction. I don't know anyone else whose mother became compulsive about grandkid pictures. It makes it hard for my family to see this is a problem and easy for them to dismiss me as the crazy one screaming about how the sky is falling.
I've had some friends comment on how their Boomer parents are hooked on their phones and the frustrations of feeling as though they have to compete with the phone for their parents' attention during a time when they are raising children and trying to instill responsible phone habits with their kids, so I know I'm not the only millennial parent experiencing this. And then again I'm sure that there are a lot of young kids these days who feel as though they have to compete for the attention of their millennial and Gen Z parents with their phones. This has run roughshod over society in a way that we were not prepared for and while I think more people are realizing there is a big problem, some people genuinely do not seem to see the problems even when it's staring them in the face.
I completely agree with you about the whole "it's the rest of the world the problem". I was looking at accounts of people with autism - we strongly suspect one of my youngest brothers is on the spectrum - and the ones who are quite woke were basically saying "I shouldn't change one bit, other people need to "educate" themselves and change their ways".
It's stupid. We need to meet each other halfway. We can't expect for other people to adapt to us, or for society to adapt to us, while refusing to make efforts toward others.
In the same way, I expect people to be understanding of some of my difficulties but I don't ask that they bend themselves backward to cater to my self-proclaim needs.
I’m sorry to hear about your mom. As someone who has OCD and is deconstructing from this whole gender ideology, I absolutely see now how my OCD latched onto these ideas and how social media became addicting for me, just like you said. It’s a tough disorder and it makes me wonder how many other kids and adults are hooked without fully realizing it. Thanks for sharing.
AHHH! I can't wait to hear this! Dorky Freya India fan girl over here!
I'm so happy you got her on the pod. Since 2018 I've been trying to crack the case regarding how my GenZ daughter ended up in numerous long, costly psych hospitalizations with no neurodivergence and limited (not "none") adversity in her life. I ended up getting a good handle on the issues at play following Jonathan Haidts work, Jean Twenge, Greg Lukianoff, and many others including Meghan Daum, Sarah Haider, Gender a Wider Lens, Helen Plukrose, James Lindsay, Coleman Hughes, Free Black Thought, Erec Smith, John McWhorter, Jesse Singal, Bari Weiss, Eliza Mondegren, Abigail Schrier, Yascha Mounk, nd many more... omg I could go on and on and on because there are so many pieces to the puzzle (its not just tech, especially if you are black)...
But Freya was indeed the woman who gave me a glimple into my daughters lived experience in such a salient way it was almost too shocking to bear at first. I remember reading that first piece posted at After Babel. I curled up into a hyperventilating ball of tears before forwarding it to all my friends. There is something about how viscerally she describes what should shock most people yet has become banal to most. It was a almost a vindication for me, a message from the universe that I'm not crazy even though I couldn't put what was happening into words. I mean, not many of us can, right? The sad truth is, the vast majority of GenZ is too caught up in "the river", as I call it, to step back and report on what is happening to them and around them. Meanwhile parents are shut out like never before in history. Which is why I think a big part of Freya's strength is in supplying her readers with shocking yet al too common evidence that most of us older adults would never come across.
We as a modern society in the digital age have a long way to go, but the work you all have put in and the strides that have been made over the past couple years has restored my faith in humanity (and believe me, my faith was GONE). So, I thank you!!! And so do my younger daughters coming up at age 9 and 11. They will have a chance because of the brave (or masochistic?) people who have tirelessly spoken out. As for my 21yo? She recently admitted, after months she reluctantly read Freya's article I sent. "Yeah... I followed her, she's cool". That's all I got on the topic but its something precious to me considering where we've been. I can be patient but patience requires faith so I'm glad I got that back!
Anyway, sorry for the monologue. I haven't even listened yet but Im all excited!
This is beautiful and we will pass this comment along to Freya! Please pop back over and tell us what you thought of the episode, after you listen! We are huge Freya fans around here, too!
Wow. This was such an interesting episode! As a side note, I’m very interested in Stella’s point about the illusion of a “true self”. I think this is perhaps one of the most pervasive ideas at the center of a lot of the gender ideology as well as some of the pop-psychology/ “spiritual” sides of the internet. I’m in agreement that this idea can be harmful and very black and white. Would love to hear another more in depth conversation around that idea!
Yes ! I always thought this idea of a true self, which needs this or that to express itself fully, ridiculous. Yes, we can repress part of ourselves for many reasons but if you need to change your body or whatever else to be "who you really are"... it's so obvious it truly is the fantasy of who you want to be and not some hidden you within yourself.
Great episode!
I just wanted to share as I was listening I began to think that it’s possible the nostalgia for gen z is driven by the desire to connect to the older generation. To want them to understand what you’re going through or to want to live in a time where your parents can actually give you advice on how to navigate the world because they have gone through it. Gen z knows their parents didn’t grow up with that technology or have to learn how to live in this same social media world and part of wanting to be in a before Era is wanting some security in how to navigate their lives. Of course the lack of real connection drives it too like you all spoke about. But I think there’s also a large part that these young people know that their parents don’t get it and that is really destabilizing when you are young.
I havent even listened yet but 100%! inciteful comment
The printing press had historical effects. We have printing presses in our pockets now.
This was a great episode! I look forward to a new episodes each week.
I really enjoyed this perspective, especially as an older millennial (xennial). I think we need more awareness of what is happening with social media and how this is impacting young people. As a parent of a 13 and a 10 year old I am very concerned about the pitfalls ahead as they navigate this online world that I can not keep up with, and the knowledge that even if I ban social media and smart phones in the home they will contend with friends being hooked on it is a challenge. It takes so much effort and going through a lot of rejection to find like minded families (though it's worth it), but it's hard enough at forty and even harder as a teen. Here I am hoping to keep my kids off phones and social media and asking that they avoid the easy but unfulfilling way to make friends. It feels like an impossible task. I def plan to show this video to my kids because I think awareness is going to be my best weapon.
Here's the other thing. I feel Gen Z is much more aware than the Boomers are of the problems with social media and Gen Z deserves props for acknowledging that it is a problem. I think many people who are millennials and younger who have kids are aware of the impact this is having. I'm not really sure about Gen X, but Boomers like my parents, who had raised their kids before social media became a big thing seem to have their heads in the sand and I feel as though my dad treats me like Chicken Little every time I talk about my concerns over navigating my kids through the challenges of raising them in a world filled with social media. Even though I feel that social media has had a deleterious effect on both my mom and my sister, both of whom have OCD.
Social media is like cocaine for someone with OCD, and my Boomer mother was no match for it. She became obsessed about how often I was posting pics of my kids on Facebook and would pressure me to post more and wrap other family members into pressuring me to post more. It got to a point where she would flame me because I was not posting enough even though I posted more pictures than most people did of their kids. My pleas to my dad that this was not normal and that she needed help were ignored. I finally stood up to her and took control of the situation but she would barely speak to me after that and always with a tone of how ridiculous I was being. My mom has since died as a result of unmanaged OCD (which also took the form of workaholism and she literally worked until she dropped due to stroke and her kidneys gave out). As for my sister, she got heavy into the gender ideology stuff and is shunning me for questioning it. I think an integral part of gender ideology and internet mental health in general is "I am not responsible for managing my anxiety, the world is responsible for doing it for me" and it was rather attractive for my sister. Being the only family member who sees that is a problem and who does not enable has been hard, and harder still because unlike things like alcoholism, the ways that harms manifest through social media are so new and bizarre that they aren't recognized as harmful. I know lots of people who lost a family member to addiction. I don't know anyone else whose mother became compulsive about grandkid pictures. It makes it hard for my family to see this is a problem and easy for them to dismiss me as the crazy one screaming about how the sky is falling.
I've had some friends comment on how their Boomer parents are hooked on their phones and the frustrations of feeling as though they have to compete with the phone for their parents' attention during a time when they are raising children and trying to instill responsible phone habits with their kids, so I know I'm not the only millennial parent experiencing this. And then again I'm sure that there are a lot of young kids these days who feel as though they have to compete for the attention of their millennial and Gen Z parents with their phones. This has run roughshod over society in a way that we were not prepared for and while I think more people are realizing there is a big problem, some people genuinely do not seem to see the problems even when it's staring them in the face.
I completely agree with you about the whole "it's the rest of the world the problem". I was looking at accounts of people with autism - we strongly suspect one of my youngest brothers is on the spectrum - and the ones who are quite woke were basically saying "I shouldn't change one bit, other people need to "educate" themselves and change their ways".
It's stupid. We need to meet each other halfway. We can't expect for other people to adapt to us, or for society to adapt to us, while refusing to make efforts toward others.
In the same way, I expect people to be understanding of some of my difficulties but I don't ask that they bend themselves backward to cater to my self-proclaim needs.
I’m sorry to hear about your mom. As someone who has OCD and is deconstructing from this whole gender ideology, I absolutely see now how my OCD latched onto these ideas and how social media became addicting for me, just like you said. It’s a tough disorder and it makes me wonder how many other kids and adults are hooked without fully realizing it. Thanks for sharing.